Can a lyricist who doesn't compose be taken serious as a songwriter?

[Shelly Holley]

I always wonder if songwriters who compose and write lyrics tend to look over writers of lyrics alone. I often feel silly posting my lyrics with karoake music as a background on the same site as those talented artists that compose the music themselves. At the same time am proud of being able to put the lyrics to a background to put together a song.

[Shelly Holley]

Well, used to it is the one thing I'm pretty sure I am. I think it would be very interesting to know of a legendary song that did come from a lyracist first (if one exists). lol. I do like the thought of a "word pull" :) I bet two lyricists working together could have alot of fun with that one. Thank you so much for your thoughts on the matter Alex. Take care! Shelly

Alexander Stuart said:

Shelly: Get used to it! Writers who play and sing will always have an advantage and will usually look down their noses at lyricists like us. Have you ever been to a guitar pull? You and I can not participate. No one ever holds a "word pull". If your lyrics are polished you will need to have a studio do the music. Until then, and probably even then, you will not likely garner any sincere respect.

Best wishes,
Alex

[Len Weber]

This is an interesting question. I am an amateur in the strictest sense, but what I write, I write it all, lyrics, melody, music, and all the music, guitar, bass, whatever else, and sometimes percussion too. To me, that is songwriting.

But that doesn't mean there's no room for a lyricist. The lyricist will always be just a part of a whole package, but a GOOD lyricist can make that whole package better just like any member of a team might make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

I think the key is for a lyricist to understand they are part of a team, and as only one player, they generally can't call all the plays, but should defer the final creative touches to the other team member(s), musically. In some cases the lyricist is far more experienced than the music side, but even in these cases, if the lyricist doesn't have the grasp of what the song is doing musically, they are probably just causing good lyrics to be wasted.

Another thing lyricists often miss is the "non-singing" parts of the lyrics. Pauses. "Whoa-whoa". "Yeahhhhh". Stuff that could sound good musically but would not really add to the pure lyrics.

Personally, I think if a lyricist is TRULY talented and dedicated to their craft, then it would be a simple matter to just cross the bridge and learn a little about music. If you REALLY have a grasp of the meter and the phrasing you are writing, then it should, I think, be merely a formality to put it to music.

Pick up an acoustic guitar. Learn the basic 16 or so standard chords on which 85% of the songs you ever have heard and loved are written. Get the tabs online for your favorite songs. You'll realize how simple most of them are. Suddenly you'll be like "why didn't I do this years ago!". And then you'll realize you are finding yourself writing your own music.

Just like that.

=)

[Shelly Holley]

I know exactly what you're saying Len. I can read music. I tought myself to play the dulcimer, as well as learning years ago how to play woodwind brass instruments. (thought I haven't played some of them in years) It's the improvising I can't seem to wrap my fingers around. And as you said, that is a huge part of it. I can get a tune in my head. And I can sing it. Or I can hear a tune already made up and put a song to it. But it's making up a whole background melody that I just can't seem to grasp. There are many nights I sat up trying on my dulcimer til I was ready to throw something.lol. It is definitly not my talent. Your advice is really quite perfect. Only the guitar and I don't seem to agree with eachother. I love it, it just don't seem to love me. lol.

Len Weber said:

This is an interesting question. I am an amateur in the strictest sense, but what I write, I write it all, lyrics, melody, music, and all the music, guitar, bass, whatever else, and sometimes percussion too. To me, that is songwriting.

But that doesn't mean there's no room for a lyricist. The lyricist will always be just a part of a whole package, but a GOOD lyricist can make that whole package better just like any member of a team might make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

I think the key is for a lyricist to understand they are part of a team, and as only one player, they generally can't call all the plays, but should defer the final creative touches to the other team member(s), musically. In some cases the lyricist is far more experienced than the music side, but even in these cases, if the lyricist doesn't have the grasp of what the song is doing musically, they are probably just causing good lyrics to be wasted.

Another thing lyricists often miss is the "non-singing" parts of the lyrics. Pauses. "Whoa-whoa". "Yeahhhhh". Stuff that could sound good musically but would not really add to the pure lyrics.

Personally, I think if a lyricist is TRULY talented and dedicated to their craft, then it would be a simple matter to just cross the bridge and learn a little about music. If you REALLY have a grasp of the meter and the phrasing you are writing, then it should, I think, be merely a formality to put it to music.

Pick up an acoustic guitar. Learn the basic 16 or so standard chords on which 85% of the songs you ever have heard and loved are written. Get the tabs online for your favorite songs. You'll realize how simple most of them are. Suddenly you'll be like "why didn't I do this years ago!". And then you'll realize you are finding yourself writing your own music.

Just like that.

=)

[Shelly Holley]

I'm sorry. I forgot to explain why it's hard for me to get around a guitar. I have Dystonia. It's a muscle movement disorder. Is easier for me to learn the dulcimer because it sets steady in my lap and I have methods to keep it in place to play. The dystonia is mainly in my face and neck but it also started more recently going down the left side of my body. Keeping my hand wrapped around the guitar is just too painful. It cramps up and the pain from the cramps set off the trimmers. Otherswise I think after learning the dulcimer so easily, it should be easy enough to move on to learning the guitar. Even with that, I just am still terrible with improvising. I often wonder why God gave me the talent to write lyrics, read music and play instruments and left me without the improvisation skills.lol. I sounded great in jazz band til time to improvise. Then I sounded like a wounded elephant.lol. It's like as long as I stick to playing what I can see, and writing with any kind of pattern when I come up with a theme, I can pull it off. You can hear from the songs I put to karaoke backgrounds, that I can at least pull off putting the words to the beats in the song. but even I realize it sounds almost boring without the "non-singing" stuff.

Len Weber said:

This is an interesting question. I am an amateur in the strictest sense, but what I write, I write it all, lyrics, melody, music, and all the music, guitar, bass, whatever else, and sometimes percussion too. To me, that is songwriting.

But that doesn't mean there's no room for a lyricist. The lyricist will always be just a part of a whole package, but a GOOD lyricist can make that whole package better just like any member of a team might make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

I think the key is for a lyricist to understand they are part of a team, and as only one player, they generally can't call all the plays, but should defer the final creative touches to the other team member(s), musically. In some cases the lyricist is far more experienced than the music side, but even in these cases, if the lyricist doesn't have the grasp of what the song is doing musically, they are probably just causing good lyrics to be wasted.

Another thing lyricists often miss is the "non-singing" parts of the lyrics. Pauses. "Whoa-whoa". "Yeahhhhh". Stuff that could sound good musically but would not really add to the pure lyrics.

Personally, I think if a lyricist is TRULY talented and dedicated to their craft, then it would be a simple matter to just cross the bridge and learn a little about music. If you REALLY have a grasp of the meter and the phrasing you are writing, then it should, I think, be merely a formality to put it to music.

Pick up an acoustic guitar. Learn the basic 16 or so standard chords on which 85% of the songs you ever have heard and loved are written. Get the tabs online for your favorite songs. You'll realize how simple most of them are. Suddenly you'll be like "why didn't I do this years ago!". And then you'll realize you are finding yourself writing your own music.

Just like that.

=)

[Shelly Holley]

Thank you Alex. I appreciate the information and the background of it. I will definitly check out some more of your music. :)

Alexander Stuart said:

I'm going to show my ignorance, but have done it before, so what? To me, a song is words and music. A tune is music only - an instrumental. I can read music, up to a point. I have some interesting guitars and have taken lessons from three talented teachers. The last one was honest enough to tell me, "Save your money and just write lyrics. You'll never be a guitarist." My memory is not so good, but there have been a boatload of great songs written by one lyricist and one composer: Ellington and Strayhorn; Gershwin and Gershwin; Rogers and Hart; Rogers and Hammerstein. Nothing becomes a SONG until the lyricist maps out a story. One day, when I was having Jay Vern put music to one of my lyrics, I played a song I liked and asked if he could do something similar. He said, "Oh, sure. That's just a Nashville melody #13 they used." Hate to use myself as an example, but go to my page, Shelly, and see if you think my songs suffer much because the lyrics were written first, then the music. You may not care for them, but I've had over twenty single song contracts, so those publishers must have liked them. I started out writing my own melodies and thought they were pretty good. But, when I started having Jay do them the quality improved dramatically. I don't think we need to think we are inferior just because we specialize in lyric writing. Keep your head up!

[Len Weber]

Right. In the pure sense (and the legal sense) a song is lyrics+melody. No music.

I understand what you're saying about the story needing to be mapped out. And many prominent folks much more authoritative than I would agree with you. Alexander has published material, and that's cool. I have never submitted to a publisher, and likely never will.

The only counterpoint I can offer is that some of the most famous songs of all time have no story whatsoever. =)

As for Shelly having muscle issues, I would then suggest a keyboard. The point is not to play like a skilled jazz musician and have to improvise - but rather to just see how simple most of your favorite songs really are. You can learn those same 16 or so chords on any multi-string instrument. You can hum a melody that sounds good to you! Remember, most of your favorite songs don't use ALL 16 of those chords, but only 3, 4, or 5. Maybe 6! I just said 16 because armed with that many, you could play the music to almost every song you have ever loved.

Once you see the background music is a very finite set of chord progressions, you pick one that matches the mood of your song. With THAT done, now you have your lyrics, and speak them out metered over your selected chord progression, and just WATCH how the melody almost sings itself for you.

You already read and play some music. It's just connecting the dots from there!

Hey there are a lot of great lyricists that are just lyricists.

[Shelly Holley]

Hello Paul. Good answer! lol. It made me feel better anyways. Thank you so much for your take on the discussion. My lyrics all start with poetry and some of my poems just seem to graduate to songs on their own, while others are what they started out as originally. Short poems. When they start to sound like a song I want to put music to the words so bad I can't stand it. It's just not in my abilities to come up with that part of it unless I have a karaoke cd handy.lol. It is very easy for me to relate to you on this. I appreciate it! Take care...Shelly

paul fogarty said:

I think its harder to write just lyrics on their own. To me that is a whole other world that deserves it's own solid place. All due respect goes to anyone who can put one word down after another, line after line, and have it A) make some kind of sense B) capture its audience for the duration, and C) move them to some kind of emotional response or resonance. That is magic right there. Back home in Australia I never heard of any songwriter-composer looking down their nose at a lyricist. A strong part of our songwriting tradition though, tends to go back along the lines of bush poetry.
The old folk tradition is to sort of fit your lyrics to standard tunes... I think, from what I've heard, that was and still is an acceptable thing to do in the real folk music traditions.
Cheers and peace.

[Shelly Holley]

Well, if I can't put a song together, I can at least inspire one. :) And I agree whole-heartedly.

paul fogarty said:

Oh... and the other thing is this. No one worth their salt ever looks down on nobody.... which gives me an idea for a song

[Shelly Holley]

I am one step ahead of you there. I have just recently aquired a keyboard. My next project. lol. I just need to order the book that tells me what note is what. Maybe it will take my lyrics further. Or maybe I will just learn to play the keyboard. lol. Either way, if my lyrics are good enough, I hope to one day find an avenue to take my songs further. Thank you Len. :)

Len Weber said:

Right. In the pure sense (and the legal sense) a song is lyrics+melody. No music.

I understand what you're saying about the story needing to be mapped out. And many prominent folks much more authoritative than I would agree with you. Alexander has published material, and that's cool. I have never submitted to a publisher, and likely never will.

The only counterpoint I can offer is that some of the most famous songs of all time have no story whatsoever. =)

As for Shelly having muscle issues, I would then suggest a keyboard. The point is not to play like a skilled jazz musician and have to improvise - but rather to just see how simple most of your favorite songs really are. You can learn those same 16 or so chords on any multi-string instrument. You can hum a melody that sounds good to you! Remember, most of your favorite songs don't use ALL 16 of those chords, but only 3, 4, or 5. Maybe 6! I just said 16 because armed with that many, you could play the music to almost every song you have ever loved.

Once you see the background music is a very finite set of chord progressions, you pick one that matches the mood of your song. With THAT done, now you have your lyrics, and speak them out metered over your selected chord progression, and just WATCH how the melody almost sings itself for you.

You already read and play some music. It's just connecting the dots from there!

Hey there are a lot of great lyricists that are just lyricists.

[Shelly Holley]

You sound like a teacher. You encourage a person to keep learning. Very admirable. Thank you again. Shelly

Len Weber said:

Right. In the pure sense (and the legal sense) a song is lyrics+melody. No music.

I understand what you're saying about the story needing to be mapped out. And many prominent folks much more authoritative than I would agree with you. Alexander has published material, and that's cool. I have never submitted to a publisher, and likely never will.

The only counterpoint I can offer is that some of the most famous songs of all time have no story whatsoever. =)

As for Shelly having muscle issues, I would then suggest a keyboard. The point is not to play like a skilled jazz musician and have to improvise - but rather to just see how simple most of your favorite songs really are. You can learn those same 16 or so chords on any multi-string instrument. You can hum a melody that sounds good to you! Remember, most of your favorite songs don't use ALL 16 of those chords, but only 3, 4, or 5. Maybe 6! I just said 16 because armed with that many, you could play the music to almost every song you have ever loved.

Once you see the background music is a very finite set of chord progressions, you pick one that matches the mood of your song. With THAT done, now you have your lyrics, and speak them out metered over your selected chord progression, and just WATCH how the melody almost sings itself for you.

You already read and play some music. It's just connecting the dots from there!

Hey there are a lot of great lyricists that are just lyricists.

[Eddie Heinzelman]

Well, nay sayers....just a name that pops into my head who has been doing quite well lately is Marty Dodson. Now, Marty does sing and play, but he doesn't perform live much, if at all, and considers himself mainly a lyricist. He's had quite a run lately. Liz Hengber as well, had several #1's. Of course, Jason Blume is one of the first names most people think of as a country lyricist. Trent Jeffcoat just got a pub deal last year, and he's a lyricist and singer. There are a fair number of lyricists in town.

Yes, there are generally more writers these days doing both, primarily for the advantage it does give you of being able to do both music/lyrics as well as perform your songs live.

If you're primarily a lyricist, my recommendation is to find someone who is primarily musical and write a ton with that person. Follow the Taupin/John model and write, write, write.

You have to walk before you can run. In the music biz, you have to walk a long long way usually, but it's all about developing your skills.

Write on!

[Shelly Holley]

Thank you for the input Eddie. And the history. Is great to know and enjoyed your advice and the information.

Eddie Heinzelman said:

Well, nay sayers....just a name that pops into my head who has been doing quite well lately is Marty Dodson. Now, Marty does sing and play, but he doesn't perform live much, if at all, and considers himself mainly a lyricist. He's had quite a run lately. Liz Hengber as well, had several #1's. Of course, Jason Blume is one of the first names most people think of as a country lyricist. Trent Jeffcoat just got a pub deal last year, and he's a lyricist and singer. There are a fair number of lyricists in town.

Yes, there are generally more writers these days doing both, primarily for the advantage it does give you of being able to do both music/lyrics as well as perform your songs live.

If you're primarily a lyricist, my recommendation is to find someone who is primarily musical and write a ton with that person. Follow the Taupin/John model and write, write, write.

You have to walk before you can run. In the music biz, you have to walk a long long way usually, but it's all about developing your skills.

Write on!